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Hillary McLieberman

by: Scarce

Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 23:50:50 PM EST

Richard Wolffe joins Keith Olbermann in a brief discussion on whether Hillary Clinton is becoming the new Joe Lieberman. Actually, almost the entire show was a slam against the recent activities of her and her campaign operatives.

Scarce :: Hillary McLieberman
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Hillary McLieberman | 21 comments
ouch... (0.00 / 0)
not sure I would go that far, but I certainly understand the sentiment.

"Join the resistance and there will be no resistance." - My Grandmother

hillary's legitimate claim to the nomination, or Obama's? (2.50 / 4)
It is amazing that there are those willing to ignore the voters who cast decisive votes in primary states for Hillary. Many of these self-same voters or pundits are also willing to posit which delegates are "rightful" and which are not.  I thought only Republicans could be counted upon to disenfranchise legitimately-cast votes or re-write the "rules" when it comes to how votes should be cast (as in the case of arguments made about the Super Ds.)

The truth is simple. Right now there is no end game in the Democratic primary. Hillary and Barack are neck and neck, each legitimately winning contests and Super Ds. Both need the Super Ds to win. Neither have the votes to take the convention. They both are playing a media game and pr game about Super Ds in an attempt to frame the argument and get to the end game as the winner. Both of them. And Hillary has just as much right as Obama to continue the debate.

Obama's "popular" votes and Hillary's "popular" votes can be recast in any light you prefer depending upon your candidate preference. Argue that Obama's won more local votes and he still does not have enough to be nominated. He needs the Super Ds. Argue that Hillary has fewer district level delegates, but she has more Super Ds. You still end up with a discussion about needing the Super Ds.

I suggest that we discuss the following instead:

No Democrat has ever won the White House without winning 2 of the following 4 States in the general election: OH, FL, TX, PA. And Hillary has already won 3 of the 4 and is likely to win PA. So who looks like the best standard-bearer for Democrats?  I answer, Hillary.  But I am open to find out how Obama wins without these states, or how he is planning to win them and why his strategy for OH, TX, FL and PA will be successful in the Fall.

Before you rush to counter with "What about Iowa? Look at the wins in Colarado? How about VA?", consider this: No Democrat has won VA since the 1960s and LYNDON JOHNSON. Winning in the Fall does not mean taking IA, Idaho, Colorado, et al, as you need 3 Colarados--minimum--to make up for OH. VA is not a 'swing state" (which by definition, should vacillate Red to Blue in Presidential elections, it does not and has not since the 60s ). Winning in November also means taking Michigan, a true swing state which even McGovern failed to win in 1972. Michigan is not guaranteed for Democrats and McCain will fight for it hard. And so, we are back now to the voters in MI and FL.

Florida and Michigan are crucial to a Democratic victory in November. Their votes need to be counted, or closed primaries in both states need to be held asap. Then we will have a real sense of who can win in November. And a better way to assess who is the nominee that can beat McCain.  

you're a real democrat (4.00 / 1)
So the Illuminati need to override the popular vote.  And we need to "count" the votes of states where candidates who followed the rules didn't participate.  Thanks for clarifying.  And who said the Soviet Union was dead?  

[ Parent ]
I don't get the logic (4.00 / 4)
Two democrats are running.  One has to win and the other has to lose in these primaries.  

It does not follow that a candidate can't win in the general election the states that they lost in the primaries .  I think most of the people who vote in the Democratic primary are going to vote for the democtratic candidate in the Fall...if we don't blow it by bashing one another in the Spring.

[ Parent ]
Ridiculous argument (4.00 / 2)
I'm sick and tired of hearing the Hillary won CA, NY, TX, etc argument.  What were her margins of victory?  Not all that significant apparently because Obama's delegate lead still stands.  Besides, what makes the voters in those states more important than the rest of the nation?  As for FL and MI, tough shit.  The legislatures moved their primaries despite knowing that they were breaking the rules of both parties.

 If they hold a new primary , fine, but if they give Clinton FL and MI, especially after she was the only one on the ballot in MI, you can forget it.  I'll either stay home or I will just leave that spot on the ballot unmarked.  I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. Period.  It's not that I am a huge Obama fan either, but I didn't feel bad about casting my vote for him in the primary, which is a nice change.

 And it is change we need, not just a change in parties or gender, but because the ideas that the Republicans, the Clintons, and the DLC just don't work anymore, and I wish that they would just go away.  They had their chance to change the world and blew it.

[ Parent ]
changing the subject (3.67 / 3)
First of all, the larger point is that Clinton's  scorched-earth campaign is undermining the chance of any Democrat -- Clinton or Obama -- of winning the presidency. Obama has the delegate lead and is on a clear path to winning the nomination, and yet, Clinton's campaign is attempting to sabotage his campaign with lies and smears and building up John McCain's credentials. If a Republican or Joe Lieberman were running Clinton's campaign, they couldn't do more damage to Democrats' chances than Clinton is.

This is curious behavior considering that Clinton's campaign strategist, Mark Penn, is the CEO of the company also running John McCain's campaign, Burson-Marsteller. Mark Penn wins either way -- with Clinton or McCain.

Reading news reports showing that many Clinton staffers want to kick Mark Penn off the campaign, one could easily argue that Penn is actually undermining the Clinton campaign -- and he may be undermining Democrats in general by alienating Democrats who might vote for Clinton, thus pushing the election to McCain.

Michigan and Florida primaries are almost beside the point. Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, and so those election results shouldn't count. Obama didn't campaign in Florida, so those election results shouldn't count either. If those states want to have new primaries, that's their business. I'm sure the candidates would participate in them.

[ Parent ]
You Can't Count Florida (4.00 / 1)
Or Michigan as being Hillary's -- unless another vote is taken.  All of the candidates, including HRC, agreed to forgo those two earlier contests because these States had moved their primary dates forward (in violation of rules that had been agreed upon).  But Hillary, ever the one to make her own rules, allowed her name to appear on those ballots anyway -- in violation of the agreement. She really isn't entitled to those delegates. Her behavior should remind us of the Bushies, who have lied and changed the rules umpteen times.  Do Democrats really want Bush-Lite?  And if they do, why wouldn't they choose McCain?

Obama is the only alternative to a continuation of the misrepresentations, reversals, and outright manipulations about which most citizens have become very tired -- and legitimately angry.  

[ Parent ]
The ONLY catagory in which Hillary leads (4.00 / 1)
is Superdelegates.

That too will change.

Obama leads in both earned delegates and Popular vote EVEN if you count the votes in MI and Fla.

The latest and best data we have on the national election comes from Survey USA.Their latest poll indicates Hillary or Obama will beat McBush.Hillary does it by 6% Obama by double that at 12%.


Please scgcfc,if you're going to post comments here on this election give up the spin and have some data to back up your comments.

PS- your entire theory that winning a primary means that Hillary is the only Dem that can win that state in the general is stupid beyond belief.

[ Parent ]
Superdelegate breakdown (0.00 / 0)
Hillary Clinton's huge institutional advantage has allowed her to lead in superdelegates for the last year, at times by as much as 139. This has since dwindled to around 40. It's interesting to see where her support is coming from though.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Among current elected officials they are about tied (Governors, Senate, Congress). But among DNC members she's still leading by nearly 40 and among so-called Distinguished Party Leaders (DPL's) she has a 10-4 advantage with only a handful left to declare. Who are they?

Jimmy Carter
Al Gore
George Mitchell (former Senate Majority Leader)
Roy Romer (former DNC chairman)
Robert Schwarz Strauss (former DNC chairman)

And who is supporting her from this group?

Bill Clinton
Dick Gephardt
Terry McAuliffe
Walter Mondale
Jim Wright

..among others.

[ Parent ]
dear lord (4.00 / 2)
let me see if I understand this logic right.

Dem states which are generally blue will vote for the GOP nominee if their selection from the primary is not in the general?

Or maybe you're missing the big picture here.

Clinton is praising McCain as a better choice for the leader of this country than Obama.

That's the story.

It's not about anything else. It's not about delegate counts, popular vote, who wins what states. It's about running for office and saying that the candidate in the other party that will be in the general is better than the other choice in your party.

One is left to believe, rightly so, that if Obama is the nominee Clinton will campaign for McCain as the better candidate to be President. She just said as much (a number of times in the last week).

The only thing I think that should happen is Dr. Dean should make a call that goes like this "Hil, for the last week you have been promoting McCain as a better choice for President than Obama. If you don't change that message right now I will have no choice but to come out publicly in favor of Obama and do so in the biggest PR way I can. You will either stop hurting the party in the general right now, or you can kiss it all goodbye tomorrow and announce that you are McCain's VP, because that is the only way you will get to the White House."

Mark Penn wants to win at any cost. If he can't do it on his Democratic candidate, he will do it on his Republican with the Democrat providing support.

The question is not what you are, we already determined that, we are now negotiating price.
electrealdemocrats.com Online since 3/07 -- TimetogoJoe.com Online s

[ Parent ]
"changing the rules" (0.00 / 0)
I thought only Republicans could be counted upon to disenfranchise legitimately-cast votes or re-write the "rules" when it comes to how votes should be cast (as in the case of arguments made about the Super Ds.)

Ho hum. Changing the rules is always ok when it benefits your own candidate, it seems.

[ Parent ]
Uprated (4.00 / 1)
..not because I agree with this crackpot nonsense, or that any of what is written is legitimate. But simply disagreeing with an opinion shouldn't earn a donut.

"Lieberman" as a pejorative (4.00 / 3)
It's interesting that "lieberman" now seems to have entered the vernacular as an an adjective to describe a democrat gone awry.

There is also (4.00 / 1)
"Liebermaned"... As in: "the odious candidate was Liebermaned by the righteous activists and wise voters in the primaries." Also known as:

"The Nutmeg Maneuver"


"The Charter Oak Maneuver" (Heroic attempts at keeping founding documents from imperialist Tory winguts to try and save them from destruction)

lol jk (Kindof sortof)

Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

[ Parent ]
putting it in perspecive - Gary Hart (4.00 / 1)

It will come as a surprise to many people that there are rules in politics. Most of those rules are unwritten and are based on common understandings, acceptable practices, and the best interest of the political party a candidate seeks to lead. One of those rules is this: Do not provide ammunition to the opposition party that can be used to destroy your party's nominee. This is a hyper-truth where the presidential contest is concerned.

By saying that only she and John McCain are qualified to lead the country, particularly in times of crisis, Hillary Clinton has broken that rule, severely damaged the Democratic candidate who may well be the party's nominee, and, perhaps most ominously, revealed the unlimited lengths to which she will go to achieve power. She has essentially said that the Democratic party deserves to lose unless it nominates her....

If Mrs. Clinton loses the nomination, her failure will be traced to the date she voted to empower George W. Bush to invade Iraq. That is not the kind of judgment, or wisdom, required by the leader answering the phone in the night. For her now to claim that Senator Obama is not qualified to answer the crisis phone is the height of irony if not chutzpah, and calls into question whether her primary loyalty is to the Democratic party and the nation or to her own ambition.

So, who will ask.

"Mrs Clinton, is Obama a better choice for President than McCain?"

The question is not what you are, we already determined that, we are now negotiating price.
electrealdemocrats.com Online since 3/07 -- TimetogoJoe.com Online s

Interestingly, Mondale and Ferraro have both endorsed Clinton (0.00 / 0)
..Gary Hart has endorsed Obama.

[ Parent ]
In defense of Samantha Power (4.00 / 1)

What Samantha Power said to that Scotish newspaper was impolitic. I'll stipulate to that...But she was refering to a candidate who seems to have graduated, magna cum laude, from the Richard Nixon Academy of politics. The NAFTA- Canada incident seems to have been a dirty trick, that would have made Tricky Dicky smile in approval. Add a heaping helping of Liebermanesque lying and pandering and you have a political monster...(Actually a two headed monster, when you include the morbidly narcissistic Elmer Gantry who is her other half.)

But let justice roll down like waters...Amos 5:24a

There she goes again (4.00 / 3)
I thought Samantha Powers statements were dead on; that campaign will say and do anything to get elected.  How long before she breaks out the crocodile tears?

[ Parent ]
Heard Obama give a press conference last evening......... (0.00 / 0)
and his comment was that Hillary is out to destroy him.

And judging from the line of attack, it sure looks like it.

Like a tag team in wrestling, first Bill, (now he has pulled off), and it is Hillary's turn to smear.    

Didn't we watch this kind of trash in 2000,and  in 2004 all from Republicans??   Anyone hear from Rove lately?  I have a feeling he may be on the Clinton payroll.

The Clinton Campaign... (0.00 / 0)

has broken new ground in the political lexicon. Their innovation is the creation of the sub group," second class Democrat". According to the Clinton campaign spin, if you are a Democrat residing in a consistently red or small state, it doesn't matter who you want to nominate. It sure seems that they are saying that only Dems. from large states,(California, Ohio, Texas, etc...), need to be heard from. How many times have they tried to denigrate an Obama win by declaring that it is a small state or one that the Democrats don't usually carry. It is just one more example of Hillary Clinton's divisiveness.

After months of hearing this and now Hillary's elevation of John McCain over Obama, as fit to be commander in chief; I can't believe that more Democrats are not furious over Clinton's short sighted and harmful, self serving tactics.

But let justice roll down like waters...Amos 5:24a

Hillary supporters need to tell her to stop, or else vote for Obama (4.00 / 2)
I think it's time for Hillary Clinton supporters to tell her to stop the scorched-earth campaign that's destroying the Democratic Party.

Not only is she dividing the Party, but every time she praises John McCain or insults voters from states she loses, she is working to set herself up for a loss to McCain in the general election. She's also hurting the chances of Democratic Congressmen and Senators to ride the coattails of the Democratic Presidential nominee in November.

If Joe Lieberman and the Republican Party designed the Clinton strategy, it would be exactly what she's doing right now.

Tell her to stop, or else you'll support Barack Obama.

Here's the phone number to Clinton's campaign HQ: 703.469.2008. Share it with your Hillary friends in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Oregon, etc., and ask them to tell Hillary to stop the scorched-earth Party-busting campaign -- or you'll vote for Obama.

[ Parent ]
Hillary McLieberman | 21 comments
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