Avoiding Transparency - Towns Shuttering Websites

Minutes Within 7 Days? (4.00 / 2)

As a member of some of the covered committees, we rarely see the minutes within 7 days, and don't approve them until the next meeting. I don't see how they can be posted so quickly.

---

by: Jon Kantrowitz @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 14:34:56 PM UTC

Minutes are minutes (0.00 / 0)

and once the meeting is over they are what they are. Posting them should not be an issue. Perhaps the time would be from when they are approved if needed? Even if that is not the case, they can be posted as unapproved minutes and subject to any future approval.

Just think about it. You should now be able to find those minutes and agendas from various committees as it happens and without waiting so long. You would have the chance to actually read them before you get to a meeting to approve them.

And so would the citizens.

The fact is this should be a non-issue and shuttering town websites to avoid compliance is an extremist knee-jerk reaction, IMHO.  


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 15:58:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

My Experience (0.00 / 0)

Minutes are written by a volunteer (elected) secretary - by hand and typed up whenever he/she gets a chance, sent to the chair for review, then circulated to members ahead of the next meeting. Sometimes draft minutes are sent to the Town Clerk, sometimes not.

---

by: Jon Kantrowitz @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 16:31:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Commission I Serve On... (0.00 / 0)

...has a paid secretary, but even so, we frequently have corrections to the minutes from members at the time we vote on approving them. Posting unapproved draft minutes strikes me as a bad idea, because even trivial, innocent errors or omissions can create serious confusion in the mind of the public... who can no more be counted on to read the corrected, approved minutes than they can to read corrections or retractions in newspapers. Whatever gets published first will be the truth, in the minds of the public.

That said, I can't see why it would be difficult to post minutes within 7 days of approval.

---

by: dauphinb @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 18:41:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I am guessing that (0.00 / 0)

whoever takes the minutes is going to have to make a priority of getting them typed up and signed off on faster now.

 


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 19:05:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Problem Is... (0.00 / 0)

...that it's the commission that "signs off" on the minutes, and it does so by a motion (and discussion and corrections, if applicable) and a vote. All this happens at the following meeting... which, in the specific case I'm thinking of, means two or three weeks later (depending on the calendar; we meet twice each month). Until the commission meets again (which is never less than seven days), there can only be draft minutes. It's not a question of the diligence of our secretary nor the skills of the town's webmaster; it's a structural thing. Maybe the requirement is to post draft minutes (and if so, I'm sure that's what we're doing; our chair is a stickler for procedure), but it's easy for me to imagine perfectly innocent scenarios in which posting draft minutes before the commission has had the opportunity to approve them could cause more harm than good.

---

by: dauphinb @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 04:50:26 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, about that state law that your procedures don't accommodate (0.00 / 0)

I would gently point out that your system does not keep you in compliance with the spirit or letter of the FOI laws.  Sounds like the audio would be the way to go -- the drafts are okayed on whether or not they actually reflect what happened.  There is nothing to okay with audio -- it either happened or it didn't.

I don't know if FOI would accept audio over approved minutes, but I think it is in keeping with the spirit of giving citizens timely access to the minutes -- and it could even be argued that even some citizens who don't read well or are partially blind potentially might end up with more access than the written minutes provide.

---

by: greenpeas @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 06:41:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm Outside My Area... (0.00 / 0)

...of expertise, so I probably shouldn't comment further, except to say that as far as I know, my chair and secretary are carefully complying with the law.

---

by: dauphinb @ Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 03:43:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thanks for your input (0.00 / 0)

It's always useful to hear from people who are closer to the front lines on an issue.  My main interest is in asking people to come to terms with the law and the abysmal rate of town compliance on FOI requests, and to grapple with logistical issues and find a way forward into the sunshine, as it were.

I am sure your chair and secretary are carefully complying with the law.  In the event that there are towns in which there is unawareness or a tonedeafness to the purpose of the FOI rules, I hope this discussion is useful.

Sometimes (this is not directed at you dauphinb) it is possible to confuse a lack of budget with a lack of will.
"Where there is a will, there is a way."   As others have pointed out, there IS a way forward that is not very demanding of time or dollar resources, if people are able to work out out how to handle legitimate questions up for resolution such as the importance of the accuracy of the minutes.

---

by: greenpeas @ Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 03:56:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

No! (0.00 / 0)

Please do comment... We aren't a bunch of Palins on a witch hunt here. Discussion of real world procedures and problems is the only way real world solutions will be reached to solve the compliance issues.


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 15:15:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The requirement is (0.00 / 0)

for the commission to get the minutes to the Town Clerk within 7 days following a noticed public meeting to be stamped and signed by the Town Clerk. The moment the Town Clerk officially receives the minutes, they become public record.

The commission's approval of the minutes is not required for the minutes to become a Public Record.

---

by: notcho @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 15:21:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"7 days" or "next action" (0.00 / 0)

The real problem is that actions can be taken on items of relevance to the community before the minutes explaining what's going on can be read by the public. If the minutes merely had to be made available at least 7 days before old business can be taken up or some such, would that address the issues that people here have with them?

–7.25 / –7.28 | http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tw...

---

by: mattw @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 20:50:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Are you saying there is widespread noncompliance? (4.00 / 1)

See the FOI law summary below.  Sounds like a lot of towns are running under the radar, or am I missing something?

It seems like there are no new time constraints, just a way of forcing towns into compliance by requiring they put their cards on the table.  Are the towns, rather than demonstrating that they already comply with existing law, looking for a way to cover up the fact that they don't?

How are the minutes typically recorded?  I haven't been to any town committee meetings anywhere to get a sense of this.

Is it not possible to have a computer in the room and type the minutes in as the meeting proceeds, then clean up the draft?

Is this a failure or will or a lack of info/failure of logistics?  Towns are going to be under budgetary pressure, so the more directly they can get these minutes produced, the better for their budgets.  One person taking Notes and another doing transcription of notes, and checking transcriptions and then editing or notes, if that is what is being done, has always been inefficient and would seem to be a very expensive way to go.

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 16:11:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Who Knew About The 7 Days Req't? (0.00 / 0)

I didn't - see comment above.

---

by: Jon Kantrowitz @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 16:32:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

lol (0.00 / 0)

And that might just be part of the problem. In your town's case, and once they figure out what their procedure to finalize the material is, you will be able to help them get it on the net in a quick fashion.


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 19:07:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

State should create a site and require posting there (4.00 / 1)

Thanks for calling this to our attention - very important story.  Background is that the citizens' groups and states have begun to audit compliance rate  and CT is not so great.  Quote from a general story in which CT is highlighted:

This audit was conducted by Connecticut's Freedom of Information Commission, a state agency. The survey results, the commission reported, "are like a chain reaction pile-up on the Interstate rather than an isolated fender bender. Compliance across the board, by geographical area, by size of locality, by type of office, was abominable."

Although half of the requests for records were successful and a majority of government workers were rated as "cooperative," the auditors were taken aback at the non-compliance because Connecticut is considered a leader in records access.

The audit's authors suggested two approaches to improving the situation: further education regular audits, accompanied by incentives or disincentives "that would provide agencies with a reason for complying or improving compliance."

I cannot find the rate of compliance figures I read in the past, but I want to say it's about 22% or so.

This is an excellent move for increasing citizen awareness and accountability, and curtailing local control by special interests.  These boneheaded towns should realize that it makes compliance with FOI requests EASIER not harder, because you just refer people to your website.  Uh, unless they have some objection to citizens knowing what they are doing?

Why do I suspect that some of the brouhaha is because  nobody has a clue how to upload a file and they think it's a big f-iing deal?  Or is it just a desire to be opaque?  
It seems like a cheaper way to meet the goals of Freedom of Information and to increase rate of compliance than running around swatting at flea-sized towns to try to smack them into compliance.

The CT Bar Association has a PDF with a summary of FOI laws on their website.  What's more odious in the new requirements?  I think somebody is being a wanker....

III. You are entitled to receive a copy of the notice and agenda of a meeting.  An agency is required to send a notice of its meetings, where practicable, at least one week prior to the meeting date, to any person who has made a written request. The agency may establish a reasonable charge for this service.

Each agency must make available its agenda for each regular meeting at least twenty-four hours before the meeting to which it refers. New business not on the agenda may be considered and acted on only on a two-thirds vote of the members of the agency.

IV. Agency minutes and records of votes must be available to the public.  The minutes of each agency meeting must be made available to the public within seven days of the session to which they refer in the agency's office, if it has one; or, if none, in the office of the Secretary of the State for state agencies or in the municipal clerk's office for local agencies. In the case of special meetings, the seven-day period excludes weekends and holidays. The minutes must contain the record of each member's vote on any issue before the agency.
The vote of each member on any issue must be put in writing and made available to the public within forty-eight hours, excluding weekends and holidays, of the meeting at which the votes were taken.  The minutes of a meeting at which an executive session occurs must indicate
all persons who were in attendance at the closed session, except for job applicants who were interviewed

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 14:52:37 PM UTC

Who knows? (0.00 / 0)

"Uh, unless they have some objection to citizens knowing what they are doing?"

I am certain there are some towns that really don't want the people to be informed. (Think Danbury's Boughton) But I am pretty sure that more of them look at it as some insurmountable technological problem.

If they can type minutes into "MS Word" or "Open Source Word" or whatever other program, they can cut and paste it onto the net. Heck, all they have to do is scan the original hard copies and put the bloody pictures of them on the net. lol


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 16:07:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

WE need an FOI technical assistance person (4.00 / 1)

or some FAQs on their website:  Uploading 101.

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 16:12:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not Everything... (0.00 / 0)

...is skulduggery. The commission I serve on has absolutely no desire to hide anything from the public... but we are interested in making sure what gets published is correct. We have a recording secretary but not a court reporter, and when we approve our minutes, making sure they're complete and correct is part of the process. It's hard enough doing our work (overseeing school building renovations) in the face of rampant unfounded rumors and assumptions; if we must publish uncorrected/unapproved minutes, it will force us to spend even more time combating avoidable misunderstandings, detracting from our ability to accomplish what the public expects of us.

Transparency is good, but we should keep in mind that the goal of transparency is lucidity, not confusion.

[Disclaimer: I'm neither the Chair nor Secretary of the commission on which I serve, nor any sort of expert on FOI. My comments reflect my personal opinion, and nothing else.]

---

by: dauphinb @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 18:53:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree... (0.00 / 0)

"Not everything is skulduggery"

In most cases you can be sure that some of them honestly don't know how easy it is to get information up on the net.  


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 19:20:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What about uploading audio of the meeting? (0.00 / 0)

If audio of the meeting could be uploaded, then they could take whatever time they wanted to make the written record reflective of the audio.  Once the paper minutes were finished, the audio could be archived somewhere and the paper replacing it so that the website was not using tons of bandwidth.

Is this feasible? It would be a great local government project along the lines of CT-N to get these audio recordings out to the public.

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 21:23:15 PM UTC

audio (0.00 / 0)

FYI- Minutes are not a record of the audio-
Audio may be nice. (If taped you can take the DVD or video to your cable company and they have to air it.)

The minutes of the meeting- the list of certain specific things such as: attendees, time of opening and lcosing of the mtg, executive session in and out motions, any other motions and votes by elected officials...
Discussions are not specifically recorded in minutes.  

The list of what must be included is determined by whether the meeting is of an elected body or a club.
Roberts Rules of Order Revised is generally considered in effect in Connecticut.

I suspect if they had a person who was good enough with the web site to upload full meeting audio, then they would be able to attach unapproved minutes.

Recordings of govt. meetings have stipulations and can not be  changed after recording.  

---

by: retired yes @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 22:06:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Further thoughts on how to work with audio from meetings (0.00 / 0)

The minutes of the meeting- the list of certain specific things such as: attendees, time of opening and lcosing of the mtg, executive session in and out motions, any other motions and votes by elected officials...
Discussions are not specifically recorded in minutes.

OK, so to make an audio recording complete, sounds like someone would need to read into the record the names of the attendees, announce the time of the meeting start and close, etc.  To make the audio posted more user friendly, seems to me the town could make a grid with column headings for 1) the time 2)the motion 3)who made it, 4) where it is on the tape (23:45, meaning 23 min 45 seconds into the recording).

If I were interested in a particular topic, I could use this sheet to skip to the topic I was after.

The most efficient way to produce such a sheet is to take the agenda for the evening and put it in a grid format (easy for someone who knows what they are doing -- for example, as a MS Word table with headings and agenda items already on it) and somebody fills it in as the meeting progresses, then saves the document, or 2)  Such a grid is filled in by hand, and then scanned/saved as a PDF and uploaded as a guide to the audio tape.

Just to be a little clearer, if the meeting started late and Agenda Item #3 started at 7:45 pm,  the time at which #3 began (7:45 pm) and the minutes/seconds elapsed on the tape (perhaps 0035) would be filled in beside #3.  The person who is taping or monitoring the tape recorder would be the one to create this grid/log.

Such a grid can be as skeletal or as detailed as you like.  For example, it could further be devided into 1) motion 2) discussion and 3) vote/report of vote, or it could simply give broad indications as to the beginning time/tape location of each new topic..

I used to work in audio visual and I would keep this type of logs to make it easier to find my edits - beats listening to the whole thing again.

There is potential that this system ALSO might help your volunteer minutes writers go back to the tape and confirm details without having to hunt through a reording laboriously.

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 22:29:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

posting minutes (0.00 / 0)

As a member of a board in a town that closed its site-
we have our minutes for BOE out there as unapproved in 72 hours- as we have a paid assistant/webmaster at the school district level.

Our town does not; all posting info is done by a volunteer from the town at his convenience.

We have no line item in our approved budget to pay for web postings/updates on the town hall site in a very small town.

Minutes are available in the unapproved mode at town hall offices- and the website for school district has been in compliance for years.

Everything costs money- the town is not keeping info secret. It does not have an employee to put info on the web.

Being fiscally responsible and complying with statutes- we can not add a line item or move $$ for a new line item in this fiscal year.  

---

by: retired yes @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 21:53:47 PM UTC

Do you realize how long it takes to put this on the web? (0.00 / 0)

Is 5-15 minutes about right?  The longer time would be if the minutes had to be scanned first.  The minutes do not have to be retyped -- just saved as a PDF file and then uploaded.  Five minutes is an overstatement of how long that takes.

---

by: greenpeas @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 22:15:46 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

AND (0.00 / 0)

The potential is that you could offset time to upload minutes by reducing the time it takes to respond to FOI requests -- if you're allowed to refer people to your website for the info they seek.

Oh, I forgot, most towns don't really respond all that regularly to the FOIA requests they receive.  

---

by: greenpeas @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 00:06:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

it is ability with the web not time- (0.00 / 0)

The ability to post on the web site is the key here- not time.
The town must have someone at work who can access the web site, has the pass words, knows how to post what is needed and can do it for all boards agendas, unapproved minutes and approved minutes...

At present our town has one volunteer who does it when he has free time. The posting of what's needed can not be done that way- and we have no one in the town hall with the expertise.

There may be eight to ten people who work there on a given day. I have recommended that when a new hire is posted- they find someone with some expertise in the web site needs.
That is not currently in the job descriptions. Those would need to be changed.

Anyway- the point is- very small towns are not set  up to comply easily with the new statute. It will take some steps to  get into a place where compliance is automatic.  

---

by: retired yes @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 01:17:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

With about a half hour (0.00 / 0)

to an hour's training any Blogger could have you (or whomever) set up with a FREE site that is easy to use. Shoot... It only takes a few minutes to make a Blog and a minute to cut and paste the information from a document in to a post.

It is so easy that there is no legitimate excuse for any town not to comply.

Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 03:24:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is a win-win (0.00 / 0)

Any town that does not have in place a system for communicating with its constituents on the web is missing a huge series of opportunities.  It's like having your foot nailed to the floor, and having to organize your whole institutional life around that nailed foot.

I encourage any town in such a position to un-nail it.  Ask for help from FOI or maybe DO-IT (state IT people?)  Or post here and ask for blogger help!

When things are unfamiliar, they may seem unsurmountable, but with just a little bit of effort, many more doors may open for the town -- not just an easy way to get your FOI compliance taken are of.

---

by: greenpeas @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 06:36:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Maybe you don't realize it (0.00 / 0)

but if you can comment on this Blog you can operate a Blog that posts the minutes. I suspect that many people don't realize how easy it is to put the stuff on the net. It just depends on the format you want to use.

A blog on Blogger is FREE and takes very little skill to operate (cut and paste - click on publish - done).


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 23:08:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's a little frustrating (0.00 / 0)

reading this kind of stuff:

I am trying to figure out what would make it so hard to comply here since all it takes is for the webmasters of these sites to add an easy "upload button"

Because the problem, in small towns like mine - which does manage to post most agendas and minutes online, is that there is no "webmaster." There is no IT person. There is very little technical support or expertise.

There is transparency. The Public Record is available to anyone who asks to see it or wants a copy of it. Adding web based access to the Public Record is beyond the reach of some small towns, for a variety of reasons.

---

by: notcho @ Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 15:31:05 PM UTC

thank you (0.00 / 0)

thanks-
Seems like it is hard for most to visualize a town of under 4000 with a little building and a small very tight budget - and no one presently capable or willing to take over posting in a blog or web site- no web master or IT support and only knowing how they use their program in the town hall or email at home.

This will come along- takes some turn over time- but eventually the many boards and commissions- all volunteer- will have minutes out there on the world wide web- as well as on the town clerk's counter.  

---

by: retired yes @ Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 04:12:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What is harder to envision (0.00 / 0)

is that there is not someone in the universe on the web or  in person who would volunteer to help you solve this very finite, manageable issue.  It is amazing what diverse skills and generosity can be found by asking in the right place on the internet.

Luckily, this is a CT blog read by CT citizens.

What part of CT is your town in? Maybe we can find you a volunteer to help you deal with the "able" part of the issue.

The lack of people willing to help vs. having an obligation to  comply with the law is something that will towns will have to work out with the state.

---

by: greenpeas @ Wed Oct 08, 2008 at 11:45:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

If technology is the issue... (0.00 / 0)

don't be shy to say the name of the town. We all want the information out there and available for the citizens so there are many of us here that would willingly help set up something.


Drinking Liberally in New Milford
ePluribus Media

---

by: Connecticut Man1 @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 15:22:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

site change (0.00 / 0)

so apparently in our case- we are moving the site to a company that is more of a template - so workers can make the changes needed fairly easily.   so in a while that may solve our problem.  

not so easy for some towns perhaps. while we all are on the web daily, i do not believe that legislators realized there may be Connecticut towns that do not have web sites!

an amazing umbrella of diversity of the computer age!

---

by: retired yes @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 15:22:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Congratulations (0.00 / 0)

I salute you and your town for finding a way to make this work.

I am enormously grateful for the services and information that town websites provide, and hope that once this change is made, your town will be pleased with the results.  And don't forget, if you need help, high school kids know so much more than many of the rest of us about computers and the internet that maybe a civics class in the area could chip in (with the uploading etc.).  It would be great exposure to government for the kids and a great use of a skill the kids may take for granted -- but that lets them be the expert and develop some confidence about what they can do and how they can participate.

You may be entirely right that legislators may not have realized some towns do not have websites.

---

by: greenpeas @ Fri Oct 10, 2008 at 15:40:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]